Thoughts About Hell

[worldoflucky]

Earlier today I posted this to my facebook/google+ accounts. I just was thinking today bout religion and about people burning in hell (I had just read an article of a preacher praising the fact that Christopher Hitchens was burning in hell). So I came up with the following.

Is it fair to cast someone out for eternity for the mistakes of a single lifetime, even a long lifetime? Does 80 years of sinning really deserve eternity of torment? Even the most vile person doesn't deserve to burn in hell for billions of years.

It seems as the eons stretch out, that a truly just God would give an option to be let out for good behavior, but then that is saying that god is just and benevolent. If he isn't, he would keep someone suffering forever.

Take a long life of 80 years and divide it by 14 billion years (the current believed age of this universe), A person only lives 0.00000000571429 of the time the universe existed. To convert that to percentages its still only 0.000000571429% lifespan of the universe. 

Now that number is hard to understand so let me break it down into something we can understand in lay terms. If a person lives 80 years. That percentage represents roughly 14.4 seconds. That means if the lifespan of the universe is 80 years, we are judged on what we do for 14.4 seconds.

That doesn't seem fair or just. Perhaps this means if God is fair and just that there is reincarnation and we get more than one chance. If he doesn't give you more than one, and he really exists, then he isn't as benevolent as you think. 

edit:
I had a friend asked me if I felt this way now that it has come out that Kim Jong Il is gone and how I felt about that. I figured I would put my response here as well:

I do. I honestly think this goes for Hitler as well. Hitler was evil, but people are shaped by their birth issues, life experiences, by mental illness and by disease (syphilis in Hitler's case). A mentally healthy person doesn't do those acts. 

Even Hitler, Pol Pot, Dahmer or Gacy don't deserve an eternity. If the whole heaven or hell thing is true, either they should only be punished after a certain amount of time (say a thousand years for every life they took - that number is of course arbitrary) or they should be judged over the course of several life times. 

If someone makes the same mistakes (or similar ones) over the course of time then maybe they do deserve it. After all God supposedly will come and judge the living and the dead. That means according to Christian theology no one is in hell yet as judgment happens at the same time for everyone. I could be more understanding if people were reborn constantly until that time and they were judged overall.

Then again I never fit in with Catholic theology well, always felt there might be reincarnation.

That was just my response. I wonder if I should have done this as a video blog.

Comments

[inland-tide.livejournal.com]

I have heard many pastors preach on this, and here's my personal take on it...

First, since you are talking about Hell, I am running off the assumption that you are contemplating this from a Judeo-Christian point of view. Most other cultural and religious backgrounds don't really have a "hell". As such, I am going to pull from that background for my comments.

I think the Bible is much like the Oracle in the Matrix. It tells us what we need to know, which isn't always the whole story. We are inside a four dimensional world in which we can only experience the 3D world, and time. God views himself as a parent. This can be seen in how the Bible discusses God. Jesus refers to him as "the Father" and even cries out "daddy" at some of his most troubling times.

So that would make us children.

When a child asks a parent why they shouldn't do something, the parent doesn't usually respond with a technical or complex answer because they have to explain it in a way a child can understand. For example, "Don't stare at the sun or you'll go blind!"

I think this applies to God's explanation for Hell. Mainly because he beyond our four-dimensional construct. He's can't exactly explain what happens afterward because we aren't capable of comprehending it yet.

To him, I think our lives are like threads for weaving. We have a beginning, and an end, and I believe we have the ability to choose within our existence how our thread appears. And God can weave us through the lives of others and through opportunities in hope of helping us grow past our mortal shells.

Also, please note that there are two confusing aspects Biblically to the context of Hell. There is the place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth", and then there is the lake of fire. These aren't the same places. And how God decides who goes where, I frankly don't exactly know. But there are indicators that the lake of fire is for those who actively follow Lucifer, although I am not certain.

There are plenty of Biblical references to a feast for God's children at judgment. Outside of this feast will be people "weeping and gnashing teeth". But there is also a time of judgment where the sinful nature will be burned away and all that will be left of each person will be the goodness. And the tears will be wiped away.

Finally, there is in Revelations a discussion on a New Jerusalem that will come. It's a cubic location with length, width and height, and four gates. This is where God's believers are supposed to live. This implies a possible existence for non-believers outside the walls. Again, this could be what is mentioned as the location for "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

This is all very confusing, Biblically. I think it's meant to be that way because we really aren't yet grown enough to comprehend what really is beyond our mortal shell. We are like catepillars, who will becomes something more than we are.

So, God tries to tell us how to grow, and how to be in a relationship with him. And he tried to tell us that Bad Things we Won't Like can happen if we don't. But what that is? It's hard to say.

[bakersgames.livejournal.com]

Honestly I can accept your explanation easier than most Christian explanations. Even if there is a time of gnashing and weeping, if people have the opportunity to have the bad part of them burned away in the end then its worth it. The tears being wiped away represents a caring god, and if there is a god I hope that is the way they are (trying to stay away from gendered pronouns) :).

I have some more in depth questions to ask, but I figure I should collect my thoughts and my sources before continuing.

I always love talking with you (and Olaf below). I appreciate that first you don't hate me for having questioning beliefs and that we can be friends with different viewpoints. I wish others (both non-Christian and Christian alike) could act like that.

[inland-tide.livejournal.com]

Correction: There are 12 gates to the New Jerusalem. It's been a long time since I studied this.

[olaflutherson.livejournal.com]

I hold a rather unique view that helps me with this thought. And to an extent, your thoughts also relate to the "problem of evil" (ie why does God allow evil to even exist?). I have read a number of books on the subject, and for me, it comes down to the fact that God exists outside of our time line. The Bible supports this in a number of places. However, it is our decision on the subject that matters within our frame of reference. Therefore, the relevance of our actions here compared to eternity are much more important than the percentages you mentioned might show. Einstein type relativity applies.

I typically compare it to being in the boxcar of a train. You can see the inside of the boxcar and understand it fairly well. However, you can only see the world passing by outside in the present form. You can dimly remember where it has been but can't see it directly and have no knowledge of where it is going. God exists outside the frame of reference of the train. He can see where it has been, where it is at, and where it is going. However, because He is just and loving, He allows for the decisions we make within this frame of reference to be valid as a choice since He knows that they are based entirely on our limited understanding. God is saying "I want you to be a friend and share eternity with me. However, only if YOU want to." If you don't, the alternative is pretty bad, but He will let you make that choice. In some Christian circles, the concept of Hell is nothing more than the permanent absence from the presence of God ... which may not seem that bad for us now, but the later perspective may leave us wishing for destruction in a physical torment of Hell.

In addition, the tormenting Hell described was stated as intended for Satan and the fallen angels. Men were not intended for that place. However, the decision is ours. How we choose to relate to others, how we choose to relate to Him, and how we choose to relate to the world are the options we have. God tells us what He is looking for, the consequences, and then lets us decide for ourselves. He respects that decision and honors it. Focusing on a “Loving God” while ignoring the “Just God” characteristics can lead to some unbalanced conclusions.

I often do the same thing with my son. I’ll give him the choice, tell him the consequences, and let him make up his own mind. If he chooses poorly, I don’t enjoy the punishment he received; but I know that it is necessary. He knew and still made the choice.

God gave us a pretty simple solution to the whole thing. “Believe in me.” It’s a lot easier than most churches make it out to be. (It does get more interesting as a believer progresses in life, but the basics are just that) However, no matter what solution God gave, you would still have folks who refuse. He could have said, "All you have to do is paint one finger green to accept eternal life." The majority of people would still be unwilling…

Incidentally, Inland Tide has some pretty good elements in his discussion. Hopefully, I didn't repeat them too much.

[bakersgames.livejournal.com]

I am sorry, it took forever for me to get back here. I actually plan on going in depth on some of the stuff that you and inland_tide did.

With all of this, how does brain damage come into play. A simple small stroke, a hit on the head, a bad drug OD can all result in your brain shifting. It will result in a full personality shift. I have seen it (and the wife has seen it way more than me) that someone who was loving and sweet took either a head injury or had a minor stroke and it changed them 180 degrees. They became nasty, mean, abusive and rude. Because of an accident out of their control are they really going to be destined for hell? What about sociopaths, mental illness, etc. We may have a "choice" about things, but there are lots of people that don't have choices. A true psychotic break can't be prayed away, and if you are suffering from a psychotic break you won't even know to pray. Depression, bi-polar, etc are all things that strike and are actual brain chemistry issues.

This of course doesn't even include the different starting positions people start with, ranging from wealthy and easy life down to living on the streets, or all the way to living in a war torn country where you have to kill to survive. If we are being allowed to choose, why are some people giving a better shot and some a worse shot, either from mental health, injury or just where they are born?

If we are all judged on one life, why does god situate some in better position then others. Of course this would be a moot point if there was reincarnation/rebirth and you got judged overall. Then it wouldn't matter because you would probably start in multiple areas. But judged on a single set of years seems cruel to make it unfair.

[olaflutherson.livejournal.com]

You have definitely delved into the "Problem of Evil" question.

First thing I have to point out is that money, position, and power do not make you happy. I have had considerably more of all of those things than I do now and was not happy. When I was little and homeless; we weren't always eating well, but we were generally happy. Especially when we were homeless, little things made for real excitement. A bag of potatoes and a couple of packs of Ramen could truly make my day back then. We didn't start having real problems until my parents got good paying jobs and could afford drugs...

Starting or ending position is irrelevant to God's plan for a life or for even being happy (no matter what you believe in – or not -). What you do with what you've got makes all the difference.

Second, “doing good” is also irrelevant in some respects. It is a one-way street. Salvation will encourage good works and “produce fruit of the spirit” but the reverse is not true. Works will not justify salvation. Salvation is a gift. (Incidentally, this one-way street anology resolves the Paul-v-Peter theological arguments many theologians like to harp on too much). I believe in ‘deathbed confessions’ if they are true/heartfelt conversions. However, counting on them is a bit too close to gambling. The few times I have been closest to death: I either hurt too much to think, medication numbed me senseless, I concentrated sincerely & solely on that next breath, or thought, “Really? This is it, huh?” (not exactly proud of that last one, would love to say I had a deep or even a religious thought, but instead that’s what went through my mind right before impact).

Finally. As for brain damage, God does not judge those in a state of innocence. Children are an example of this. While it is not strictly biblical, I believe that mental illness falls into this category. In this way, the cognoscente person is the one who’s life will be evaluated… the damaged individual will not. The individual who was faithful to God all their life and then suffers a stroke which damages them, will not be judged on the part they have no control over. This is also why the question of choice or “made that way” becomes an issue with regards to sexuality. It the individual was damaged (pregnancy error exposed them to too much of a specific hormone, genetic mutation, etc), then many in the religious community would have a difficult time with condemning all sexual distinctives. However, if it is purely a choice; then you have a bit of a rub… explaining the quibbling in the church, culture, and media over the details. Some things are just not so easy to sort out and in many of these difficult questions… the “devil is in the details”.

[hawkdancer.livejournal.com]

Good point!